WHY IS B2B MARKETING SO BORING - JON BUCKTHORP

CRA: Jon Buckthorp, welcome to the TechBurst Talks podcast. Jon B: Thank you very much Charles. It's great to be here. CRA: And it's always nice to talk to you. We haven't seen each other face to face in a while, but we've been connecting virtually, I guess, over the last couple of years more. Jon B: Absolutely. I mean, um, you've been in and around my ecosystem of tech bros for the last decade or more. Absolutely. And, it's been great seeing what you're getting up to. CRA: I'll scare you. It's almost been two decades. I think I would have met you in 2007. Jon B: That's because you're omnipresent. That's why. Uh, you've been everywhere for me, so CRA: I just think I'm afraid to think how, what we looked like back then, but um, we're doing okay, we're aging. All right. Jon B: looking younger, actually. It's amazing. We must have done the right thing. CRA: I'm well, I don't know about looking younger or not. I think I used to have some dark [00:01:00] hairs that now they're all pretty much gray. Jon B: Hair. Bad subjects. CRA: all right. So John, please, can you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and then we'll go into some more questions, Jon B: Sure. And thanks for the opportunity. Um, great to see everyone that's tuning in on video and audio there. So my name's John. I'm, um, I guess there's three things that motivate me. Um, I love technology. I love people and I love having fun and every single day that I've ever done any job, they're the things I'm looking to try and achieve and I'm delighted that 25 years in, I'm still finding new elements of all three day in day out and that's what So right now, um, my job is really proudly the commercial director of a really cool marketing and sales creative agency called differentiated. I run my own content studio called John B Studios where I take briefs from, uh, Brands that wanna, uh, [00:02:00] highlight messages or technologies out in the media world. And then finally, I'm a board advisor to the Women's Sports Alliance. So I've, I'm doing a few things actually, Charles. It's sometimes a bit hard to define what it is I do, but CRA: but this is what makes it life fun because you've now gone into this whole portfolio career. But when we met, what it would have been, let's say 17, 18 years ago now, we were both working for Vodafone in the UK and that was a long time ago. And I remember back then I used to affectionately refer to you as Mr. Vodafone because you've always worked at Vodafone, but we can come back to that later. But you started out there at university and all the way through. Jon B: I mean, I started as a Christmas temp in a Vodafone retail store November 1st, 1999. And I did every customer facing sales job in all of Vodafone's organisational structure from the UK operating company out into the global teams before I took a punt on something called [00:03:00] marketing. It seemed like the cool thing to do and well, it kind of worked CRA: very good. But after all that time with Vodafone, you've now branched out and you have this portfolio career that you're creating. So what led to this transformation? Jon B: Well, uh, got an opportunity. Um, uh, I'll always have been very, very fond of my time at Vodafone. It, it's been everything to me. It'll be probably the longest time I'll ever work for any organization for the rest of my life. Um, which is a bit of a weird thing to say. I don't think I've said that out loud actually, but it will be. So it's going to be an important part of my DNA. So I'm always going to be affectionate and I'm always going to be a kind of a storch defender, uh, of those guys. Um, So B, because I'd come to the Rud Fund is a changing organization and I had a fantastic opportunity to create a new path as a result of some structural changes. Um, so I came to this portfolio by a little bit by chance and a little bit by [00:04:00] design. Um, and then things started to appear, but I knew that the three things that I needed in my life. Was technology, people, and fun. And once you have that outlook, sliding doors happen. And just three happen really quickly for me. Um, so I created this portfolio by accident. CRA: Okay, well, it seems to be working out well. So why don't we go a little bit more into the portfolio first and let's start off with differentiated. Can you tell us a little bit about the firm and a little bit more about your role and what type of clients you work with? Jon B: Sure. So, um, Differentiated are a UK based marketing and sales organization that prioritizes creativity, um, in the world of B2B. Now, that's an important factor because getting creativity in B2B is something I know CRA: You never hear those words in the same sentence. Normally when it comes to B2B marketing and creative, it never really happens that Jon B: Well, I'm interested to get into that a little bit more [00:05:00] with you because I completely disagree with you because I've, because I've based my life on it. So, so what differentiated do is put the right content in the right hands of the right people at the right time. Um, in our part of B to B, we've become experts and domain experts in something called account based and Deal based marketing. So this is when you need to go on a pursuit. Remember, Charles, we used to work. You were in a pursuit team. Well, imagine having a dedicated marketing group around the work that you used to do. You're just focused on getting making you successful and doing three things. Getting the story out there, expanding the number of contacts and then being there when it matters. That's what Differentiator does, and we do that for technology firms, professional services firms, and we now also do it quite effectively for a lot of telecoms firms out there. So, um, that's what Differentiator's doing, and I'm the commercial director. My job is to tell this story to people that don't just know us. CRA: [00:06:00] Okay. And then what about John B Studios? 'cause this also happened about the same time. And by the way, I do love following you on Instagram and seeing all of your highlights, and you always seem so active and so damn happy. In a way it pisses me off Jon B: A lot of people say that to me. So John B. Studios came out of the fact that whilst I was leading field marketing for Vodafone, which I did for about three to four years across both the UK and the globe on the back of a 25 year career. I found this role of influencer marketing now that every time I say those words, a little tingle or a shudder goes down my spine because immediately you're thinking of Instagram and you're thinking of shampoo. I don't know why I've said shampoo. We talked about hair, right? But yeah, these people are selling things in B to B. It's a niche business. And as a result, it's got only a few folks operating within it. Boiling it all down. It's folks that [00:07:00] are really interested in technology and want to share it with the people that they know will find interesting. And as as a consequence, I work with organizations to help them get a message to their audience. They find it harder to get to. So that's what it is now. Jumbie Studio tomorrow could be something different. That's the beauty about having a portfolio, right? CRA: Well you're at least getting clients to do repeat business with you, which is a good accomplishment, which means it's not going away yet. Um, but I'm guessing this isn't type of influencer marketing with you and esp, Speedo and champagne and some waterfront and you get hit by a wave or something. Jon B: I'll just take a note. That seems like an interesting, that's gonna, I'll put that down maybe to B roll in some of the stuff that we do. CRA: But now you've gone down this path and I mean, I've done something similar a number of years ago where I tried to create a portfolio career and I had to develop my own personal brand. And I think we've talked about this before. It's a challenge. So like what challenges have you faced as you've tried to do this and what have you done to overcome that? Jon B: So what a great question. Um, [00:08:00] well, firstly, 25 years in Vodafone and learning my art of using social media effectively. We would call it social selling in those days about being present, creating content, then moving into marketing. I figured out the power of being a marketer, applying the rules of being a social seller to post regular content and have an opinion out there. Once you leave a big corporate organization, You're on your own. And therefore, there's three things that happen. Firstly, you've got no content, because you need to create it. Secondly, you've got no credibility, because you haven't got anyone attached to you. And thirdly, you've got to find a new set of audiences. And they were the three things I had to overcome straight away. So I had to go back to school a little bit, Charles, and kind of figure out what it is that I'm going to do or what I'm going to talk about. It just so happened, it's pretty much the same things. Just talking to a slightly different and wider audience without [00:09:00] being just associated to one brand. So, so essentially, I've got more content now to share than I ever had. Um, and it's, it's wild. So the personal brand, this might be a cliche, my friend, but it's literally what you see online. It's not a character. I'm not wearing a badge. It is me. CRA: I can vouch for that. Jon B: find being me easier than any other thing I've tried to do. So I suppose, being authentic, but genuinely not an affectation of authenticity. I think I've found The way that I'm just me. Just me. That was a crap answer. Sorry, my friend. I don't know what else to say. CRA: answer because it's like you found by doing this on your own you get that chance to just be whatever you want to be and you can redefine yourself like this is what I want to be when I [00:10:00] grow up and you know like we're all still I'm still trying to figure out I'm about to restart this now in Europe and I have to start all over again so I have to ask myself those tough questions. But I think it's like, it's a fun journey and it is very rewarding when it goes well. It can be very hard as you build it up, but I think you're doing a great job. Jon B: Thank you. And again, I suppose not the metrics that you look at to determine success change. So when leading a field market effort, you're looking at how many people click the call to action or how many engagements do you get? Well, now it's really about, um, uh, how much fun am I having? How can I incorporate my new drone, by the way? That's my big thing, my new Christmas present, right? How can I incorporate a drone shot into it? Um, how can I do something different that, in an attention economy, is still fun and not clawing? You know, it's not embarrassing. Or even if it is, the joke's on me. No one else, you know. CRA: I think that's great. So, um, I should actually give a [00:11:00] little bit of background to how this came about. So we've known each other for years, but about a year ago, maybe nine months ago, I was with a CMO who just switched from B2C to B2B. And she was saying, she's like, it's driving me nuts because it's so boring. And there's no examples of people who do, who make B2B marketing fun. Then I'm, then I started talking about you and all the stuff that you had done at Vodafone, um, and the work you were doing now with differentiating with your own studios. And I just realized, I'm like, wait a minute. Why don't I talk to John about this? Cause this would be fun. It's a good excuse to chat for an hour anyway. Um, but I thought you've actually made it fun, but let's, before we go into the fun side of it, why do it have to get so excited? Because at least one person makes it fun. Why don't tech brands understand how to make B2B marketing more fun instead of just talking about their product spec and making it very boring and samey Jon B: Oh, wow. Um, it's a great point. A great question. I think I saw something on social or somewhere [00:12:00] that basically it was, it was, it was like if B to B brands sold trainers, right? And essentially it was a picture of a trainer and it would turn it gave you the all of the product specs, then the return on investment and then how it would make your network think you were cool, right? All of these things, whether if you look at an Adidas or a Nike advert or a Puma advert, it's just a really great shoe, right? And you look cool in it. And actually my favorite one. It's basically, it's one from Nike. It's under their Just Do It banner, but it's got all of their shoes over the last 10 years and the world records that they've managed to achieve with them. Right? That's the closest I've seen for something being cool and kind of B2B ish. But the reason is, is because the lens on B2B is still in the pragmatic rather than the creative. And I suppose that's why I joined Differentiated, is to bring the creative into the pragmatic. CRA: And we do need more of that because I think a lot of the tech B2B marketing [00:13:00] teams have been around doing it the same way for so long and they've never, you're not going to get fired if you keep doing the same thing. Um, but if you tried to go out there and do something too creative, it could backfire. So, you know, that becomes more challenging for them. But let me play the devil's advocate here. What if I said that I think the current way of doing tech focused marketing, B2B marketing is actually quite effective. Tell me why I'm wrong. Jon B: Um, well, in the main, you are right, because people are still buying things and people are still getting rewarded for it. My angle, however, um, got, um, got emerged out of a report that we, uh, that we did at Differentiated, actually. I love this report because it wasn't on the clients that we were, it was on their clients, and it was called the blend of art and science. And essentially, Most people will be able to run a campaign and get away with vanity statistics of engagement, click through routes, and metrics, but it won't be interesting, and [00:14:00] it won't be fun, and no one will remember it. Our report shows really, really clearly that buyers, uh, buyers of B2B tech, they want to be educated, they want to be inspired, they want to be entertained, and they also do need the metrics, but don't forget about that bit. So I would say, this year of all years, Charles, there'll be more content that will be produced than ever before in human history and AI will only accelerate that. But there's a big chance that the quality of the inspiration entertainment will be devalued unless it's really, really worked on by amazing humans. And I suppose that's, that's something that differentiates places right at the center. CRA: Okay. Very good. Now let's take a look at John B studios. So tell us a little bit more about what is John B studios and what types of influencing do you actually do for what types of brands? Jon B: Okay. Well, let's leave that word influencer now as something in the past. And John B Studio is [00:15:00] effectively a place where good ideas come to get created into good ideas that other people see. Um, so essentially, I'm creating point of view videos on the technology in the sports world about things that I see and things that I do. What I do really, really specifically to your last point is I blend the two. blend a YouTube aesthetic rather than a corporate video aesthetic. So a lot of the videos are in my studio. The studio is part of is a character in my studio, right? I take multi angles in there, but most of the time I'm taking, I'm taking a three step story about something you didn't know about that even might be server equipment or network telecoms equipment. And I'm applying it to something of my life. I've done a couple of jobs of late where I've I've done networking equipment and related it to what I can't even remember. But it was something it was [00:16:00] nothing like it was nothing off topic, and I like doing that. So I like the diversion. I like creating situations where people think, What's that got to do with it? Oh, he's actually telling me these three things of wires, wireless and clouds. But he's wrapped it up slightly differently. So that's what John Beach Studios is to do. It's using YouTube creative aesthetics in written form and video to tell a business story to someone that needs to hear it. CRA: And that's the important thing there. It's about the storytelling. And I like that because I think that's what I try to do, um, and I enjoy doing it. And I think that's what I'm entertained by. So maybe that, maybe this is all just me wanting to talk to you because it reminds me that what I do is actually okay and not a waste of time. Jon B: Yeah. Well, actually, when, um, when we met a couple of decades ago there, you had already done a good piece of time in an organization called Moss before you got to Vodafone, where you were telling essentially creative commercial stories, and you were an [00:17:00] army of one, my friend, at those times. And I still say the value that you create for organizations, not only on this channel, but in your consultancy work is doing Not the same things, but you've got the same magic. We connect because we love the art of the commercial story. And we're also humans that realize that that's what makes the world go round. So, I'm right back at you, my friend. I think you do that. And I saw some things on your YouTube. Your TED talk is a great example of that. It's really entertaining, by the way, click the link up above for wherever it is, but but follow Charles on all the channels. He's been very kind to me, but he's more effective than this to me. So check it out, CRA: Okay, well, one area that you blow me away is the stuff that you're doing on the advisory board for the Women's Sports Alliance. So tell us a little bit about that and how you got involved in it. Jon B: So, um, that most advisory, that most, um, Organizations that are looking [00:18:00] for advice, they need to find certain people with certain skills, um, to, to, to fit a seat. Um, and Back when I was moving on from Vodafone, I met up with Jordan, the managing director, who told me about the principle of what she was trying to do. At that time, Jordan was quite transparent. She was looking to corporate sponsors to get involved with the women's sports alliance. Told her I was leaving, but we hit it off so much about my passion for sport and what Your viewers and listeners are probably getting a dose of, here, this genuine energy, and fun. And she wanted me to join the board, so, I did, and I guess on the Women's Sports Alliance board, I'm the person with the skills within B2B and my network, uh, and my, the creative stuff I do is the link into the board. Now, I tell you this right up front because I'm totally standing on the shoulders of giants. And the reason being alongside me on the board [00:19:00] is the former Lioness captain, Steph Houghton, um, a general, like a elite athlete. Carla Molinero, um, a 50 kilometre world champion, um, at trail running and long distance. We have the managing director of Puma. We have, um, a incredibly, um, uh, smart cookie, former Olympic, uh, uh, coach who works for the Gary Neville University. I could go on, right? Um, so essentially that organization. It's really designed for the promotion of commercial interests of women in sport, of which often gets taken for granted and often is taken advantage of. We are setting up guardrails and content and advice for athletes, for brands that want to work with athletes, and all those people around the world that are interested in the commercial benefit of women's sport and just getting involved. So they're the [00:20:00] three communities that we create. I'm CRA: So it's the beginning of the year. So how about this? Let's really quickly go through your portfolio. What do you hope to achieve at Differentiated this year? Jon B: on a, um, uh, uh, growth journey. Um, uh, the three things that I would like us to achieve this year is to become an accredited B Corp and join the ranks of the most ethical, sustainable organizations in the world. Uh, number two, um, I would like to have different conversations in different markets. And thirdly, I'd love to win some gongs because I need to dust my, uh, my tuxedo out. Um, for John B studio. Um, if I'm honest, I just like to continue to have the absolute time of my life telling commercial stories to people that listen, but get really good with a drone, right? And then for the women's sports alliance, we've got some really exciting things that are coming up, um, with some very high profile, uh, rights, [00:21:00] Holders. Um, one of which we're seeing this Friday. I'd like that to become public and to be part of something that if I was speaking to my younger version myself, he would have been like, What? And how are you there? That's what's happening this week. I'd like that. I'd like to be able to tell you that story. CRA: That sounds great. And out of curiosity, will there be a fourth component to the portfolio Jon B: Um, CRA: or fifth? All Jon B: yeah, yeah, of course there will be. Yeah, I'm yeah. hugely into music. I'm hugely into radio. I'm hugely into podcasts. Um, there's something there. There's an itch that I need to scratch at some point. So doing this is a really great way to make me think about what could happen this year. So watch this space. But the answer is yes. To everything. CRA: right. Great. So now let's get back into the tech world again and start talking about [00:22:00] this B2B marketing world that we live in today. So if you ask me to give you bad examples of B2B marketing for tech companies, I could go on for ages. But if you ask me to give you some great examples, I'd struggle to create too long of a list. So like, which brands do you think do B2B tech marketing well and why are they doing it well? Jon B: that's a really great question. Um, so, uh, be mindful that I need to protect the organizations that I work with. I'm going to go up a level. Um, so I'm gonna I'm going to talk about some of the monolith brands that I think are doing a good job creating niches. But then I'm going to go down into small organizations. So So firstly, Um, I think the nearest to seeing the creativity you have in the consumer world applied to business is such a cliche, but I think Apple do a neat job of blending that. And I think even the most recent video that it did to, I think, to promote the latest iPhone [00:23:00] and the latest, IOS. It was in. It was last year around summertime. I recorded a, uh, a Cybertruck video. So whatever moment that was, um, and they did something where they squashed a load of emojis and they, and everyone got so upset with that. Brilliant marketing, right? It's brilliant marketing. Um, so I think those guys do things deliberately, uh, to go against type. Um, and I think it plays into B to B. Well, but off topic, actually, um, depending on how they view themselves, um, of all the organizations in the world that probably knock on the door of B to B and tech would be Guinness. You didn't expect me to say that, right? But from a CRA: I have to drink to get through a day. So Jon B: but from a marketing perspective, I think Guinness are insane the way they play their CRA: B2C though. Like what about on the B2B side? And this is [00:24:00] where it is harder. I mean, like if I go through and you look at it, if you look at most of the hardware vendors, it's your product spec and that's literally it. It's like, it's just a long list of terms that nobody really understands. I do think like in the mobile world, I think Vodafone did a very good job on the B2B side. At least I know they haven't had as much success probably as they wanted. But at least they were out there venturing into it. But the problem is if you look around a lot of the other telcos, they haven't been as good. Um, you get your occasional ones. Um, like there's a great company out of Australia called WeWumbo, which basically dominates the high end residential real estate market for an app that actually they sell into the condo owners or the portfolio owners. They've done a great job at it, but it's like so few do it. Um, it's it's a difficult thing because it's really understanding that I have to understand that I'm trying to deliver a human outcome to you and that I want you to feel something about me. That's how you build up. You know, you talked about Apple. That's the irrational loyalty. What makes somebody willing to sit outside of an Apple store? For [00:25:00] three days to buy a product when they can click a button online and it's delivered that same day. Jon B: It's wild, right? CRA: that's the irrational loyalty you want to get. And that's still missing a lot, um, in this tech world, I think. Jon B: Yeah, I agree. And actually, I was speaking to someone from the telecoms world. I've avoided talking about telecoms, but I agree with you. I think Vodafone did a great job, um, especially around 5G. Actually, I think they did translate it. I'm biased there. Um, I'm biased there. But I also think the likes of BT in the UK have done a decent job of rebranding themselves of late. I think they did a sharp job there. I think Orange Wholesale across their business section. Um, I was very interested. So I'm going to come back and I am going to answer you. that I think one of the greatest folks in marketing from a brand storytelling perspective are Ian, the Etislat, right, out of the Middle East, and anyone that's, that's getting Jason Statham to be in their, uh, I mean, I like his haircut, right, but CRA: Yeah, it's good. Jon B: are doing things different to tell a different story.[00:26:00] Out of all the brands, I'm probably really interested in seeing those guys at Mobile World Congress, because they'll be doing something very interesting, I'm sure. And actually, from a wholesale perspective, so again, a different angle, Um, It's a and are doing some really interesting stuff in the wholesale space. That's wholesale telecoms is is a very small world. Subsea cable systems, international roaming, that sort of thing. But I think and I've got a decent, a decent angle there. Um, and I like what they're doing. I've avoided the words a I, by the way, I've avoided the words, and I've gone brands on this and brand stories deliberately. CRA: stories are more important right now. There's enough out there with AI. We don't need to. Build a market. I say that like with my last half dozen podcasts, all about gen ai, but that's Jon B: Um, but yes, so, um, it was a long winded answer because it's a tough, it's a, it's a tough question. Um, there's, there's plenty of folks that differentiated a sport and they're an amazing marketing plug, right? Also, John B studio supports incredible organizations. Just check my content. CRA: [00:27:00] slight plug Jon B: Yeah, just check my content for that, but all of them, I'm going to say and just because especially in discreet markets, they're doing great work to bring a story alive from the mother brand. And, um, and I think getting those two links between your tech and your main brand, I think that's a smart move. CRA: Uh, I'm gonna give you my example of the worst, um, because I can generalize this and I'm happy for you to disagree on Jon B: Okay, go for it. CRA: So I really struggled with the whole 5G launch and that was from God, it must have been eight years ago. I was in with a meeting with the CEO of Telstra at the time, uh, Andy Penn, and he was talking about how 5G is great. You can download a video in seconds. And I remember sitting there going, nobody downloads videos. We stream use Netflix. And then as the hype in the buildup to the launches of 5g, every single mobile operator, every single network equipment manufacturer all use the exact same timeline and nobody called bullshit on it. I'm like, nobody [00:28:00] downloads movies. The only time you download a movie is when you're running late for a flight and you realize they don't have a seat back entertainment system. And you're like, Oh, I better download it. And I've tried it probably half a dozen times and I've never gotten a movie downloaded. So we built this whole thing, but nobody had a strategy on how to actually market it to the people. And I'll give you the one specific worst case scenario for an advertising campaign around 5G. And it was from Singtel, um, Singapore's mobile network operator, the incumbent there. And they ran a campaign of when do you use 4G, 5G, or Wi Fi 6. Jon B: Hmm. CRA: Because you're going after that one niche audience of like three people in the entire country who would give a shit about that, but answer, and it was just blowing my head because nobody thought about what does it mean if you ask somebody about 5g, oh, it's supposed to be fast. Well, 4G is fast enough for the vast majority of things we're doing. They never understood that they needed to try and build a human outcome out of it. We're like, it's going to deliver this to you. That's going to make you want to have it. And instead it was [00:29:00] just, it's going to do something, which it would be great if it was 10 years ago, but since you don't download anymore, we'll, we'll just keep saying it. Cause we don't know what else to say. Jon B: Right. Well, it's interesting. I'm gonna go back to that top of, um, of the Guinness example. Um, the reason Guinness and BTC really effective is they connect an experience of human story and you almost want what's on the screen because it's so brilliantly told. And it's about people. So, um, I am biased on this, right? Because I was part of the UK launch for 5G for for a business audience. And rather than talk about Um, speeds and feeds. We actually created an innovation lab at the heart of Media City in the UK, right next to the BBC, and we took a people angle story by you by bringing large organizations with small organizations and place them in the same place. We were a little bit early even doing that, right? Not only the [00:30:00] potential maturity of both organisations, the public sector that we're operating in and the very nature of 5G. But what a blast it was doing something different, Charles, and the marketing and the story around doing that. And meeting makers and creators was more of a Guinness play or a Nike play than it was a tech play because we had to talk about the fact that, um, uh, Chris had, uh, had a tech startup that used 5G really brilliantly because he was developing virtual reality training solutions that he wanted to sell to enterprise. The story wasn't the speed and feed, it was the fact that Chris had this idea and he could just do it anywhere because of 5G. So we took the Guinness angle of showing the beauty, the art, as well as the science. My answer all overall is B2B sells the science and it forgets the art, and I think the reversal of that is where organizations need to go, CRA: So I have to do one quick interjection here [00:31:00] about Guinness because this is a, I haven't thought about this in a long time. I, uh, when I was doing, I was in grad school, I had a marketing class and I actually did my marketing paper on Guinness and the teacher came back and the comment on the top was great commercial, poor content. Jon B: right? CRA: And it was so long ago, I think I was excited because I actually had a color printer for the first time. So I was printing some of the Guinness ads in there to make it look longer than it really was. Jon B: it's, it's beautiful. But also, um, I am and again, it's not, it's not, it's not B to B. And I'm doing this deliberately now, the more I think about it, because again, a lot of my, uh, A lot of the work that we do Both in mind for Differentiate, for the studio, is taking B2B tropes, of course it is because we always have clients, but it's using inspiration from others. And I think the, one of the best examples I always think of is in the UK we have something called Compare the Meerkat, right? And these are some characters that have now become [00:32:00] omnipresent with essentially searching for home insurance or travel insurance and that sort of thing. The reason that those guys, uh, Sir Guy and some other, uh, furry dude exist is because Google, um, their search terms on SEO ramped up to ridiculous fees like 12 bucks, 12, 12, um, for, uh, compare the market, right, as a, as a search phrase. But then to deliberately use characterization with some fluffy cartoon characters and get the search term to be meerkat, which was really cheap on an SEO basis, became probably the most effective. And creative development campaign of the last decade on an absolutely transformative effect for that as a brand, because now it's make out the app is make out no compare the market, but it's so good. So well done. That's a good example of [00:33:00] again, the angles that we're looking at when we're advising clients that what's your Meerkat What is your maker? You know, CRA: did not know that example and I remember the meerkats from my time in the UK I'm just amazed that it's actually developed like this. So we'll get on, get on him for doing that. So, Jon B: It's wild. You should dig that case study out. I think it's a everyone who's listened to this or in any form of marketing should check out the maker and how they've done it and and on their route to become publicly listed. So this was This was a genuinely create shareholder value. It's a good example of how marketing successful, creative marketing can create a commercial impact for for brands. And I'm a I'm a I'm a big believer of that on again, just as a final build. Often, um, with the amazing bands that organizations can create, they will allow sales colleagues, especially in B2B, to go out with a hand built presentation when there's a 50 [00:34:00] million deal on the table, right? Indifferentiate and John B. Studios. That's the area where we love to operate. So we're probably not a brand, a big brand agency. But what we are is folks that do the tactics incredibly well. And we can play in the strategy space for sure. But I like putting in the hand of the sales. Colleague an absolute match winning thing to give to a car. That is where I like. I'm not one step behind the pen. That's where I like to play now. CRA: that's great. And if I think that sounds, it's also an exciting place to pay because there's so much opportunity there. But now let's say that I work for one of the traditional telcos or a tech brand, and I'm working in marketing, but my company is sort of saying. No way, you know, you shouldn't be doing this. Let's just stick to our guns on this. What advice would you give me? Or what should I go and tell my bosses to try and convince them that this type of B2B marketing. That [00:35:00] builds on those experiences and drives that irrational loyalty, um, is of value. We should give it a go. And I'm putting you on the spot with that one because if that's an easy answer, then we should go into business together and we'll take this to Asia and across Europe. Jon B: let's take a memo at that point. Um, but I suppose the first things first is that we, especially with mhm. Not non believers seems harsh, but with non believers, um, I would use the metrics that they operate a lot of their decision making process. So hard data market research them again. The arts and science report that we've created went out and spoke to in a substantive way. that you want to influence. So just listen to show your boss the evidence of what people actually want, not what they used to want. So number one, use, use some evidence. Uh, secondly is just to do some stuff. Um, now I'm not advocating, um, [00:36:00] mass deconstruction of corporate infrastructure or anything. But doing something is better than talking about doing something. So doing something different, and that might be just in the creative expression of a PowerPoint presentation. It might It might be going to a pitch and using 12 slides of pictures rather than any words to try and win the deal and talking about it. By the way, that's a success story that we do have just as an FYI. It's one of our case studies. So just using pictures and being the art of the conversation. Um, so doing something different would be number two. And then number three is ecosystems. So essentially go and find people that are doing things in this space that you find interesting or You find terrible and speak to them. And within the UK, there's a couple of great audiences and communities that I'm part of. The first is the B to B marketing organization. That's a great community to learn what's happening in the space. And then there's another [00:37:00] organization called Hot Topics. Um, they get together CDO, CRO, CHRO, sales officers, chief marketing officers. around educational topics about what's happening in the industry and what's learning. It's a great place to be if you want to learn the moves and shakes. So essentially, just do some do different things. And also think about leaving if there's the door is completely closed. That's that's a reality. CRA: That's, that's fair enough. So, okay. So what I'd like to do is finish up with some more fun questions. Jon B: Oh, okay, great. CRA: The first Jon B: Well, hang on, that was fun. So, uh, this has all been fun though. CRA: this is going to be more fun because I cannot wait to ask you a Jon B: okay, fine. CRA: So first one, this is a true or false question. Okay. Okay. So, I heard a rumor that with your long career at Vodafone, um, that they're actually considering building a statue in front of the Newbury headquarters of you, and with the Mr. Vodafone title. Is that true or false? Jon B: it's completely true. Yeah, I mean, it's, I found it very [00:38:00] embarrassing, but yeah, that'll be, um, that's in construction. My agent is dealing with some of the design features at the moment. Um, I feel I'm far more athletic CRA: Wonderful. And they're also going to rename Newberry Buckthorperry? Jon B: I think, uh, the berry, uh, device kind of link is kind of, uh, that's a posse. CRA: good point. All right. So, uh, question two. Now, let's say you can go back to the start of your career. So go back to 1999, and you have a choice. You can follow the path that you went on with Vodafone and now into your portfolio career, or you can go directly into that portfolio career. Do something entirely different or play professional football for Lincoln city. Jon B: Oh, God, that's good. Ah, you've really. CRA: all these years that you're still a Lincoln Jon B: You're right. That's that's that's really, really good. And when you when you watch this [00:39:00] audience and when you re watch this on the record, Charles, that reaction there was absolutely genuine. That's a great question. I'm padding for time. I think genuinely and sorry to be a complete cheese ball. Um, a career for Lincoln City with my level of skill will be very, very short. So I would have had to donate something different. I I wouldn't change a thing, actually. Um, I would continue to have worked as a retail sales assistant in four stores, took on a, um, a mid market telecom sales job, move into to corporate, move into an international, move into to management, lead some of the biggest acquisitions in the UK, then move into marketing, then do it all again and then exit. I've had an absolute blast. I wouldn't change anything. It's been amazing, CRA: You know, I've asked this question probably, I don't know, maybe five or six times out of this fifties, five or [00:40:00] 60 podcasts I've done, not one person said they would change it. I always, I always do it with somebody. Who had a chance to play sport or wanted to play sport. Like one guy who I thought, Gerhardt, my friend Gerhardt, you know, I thought, you know, he would prefer to be a springbok rugby player. Uh, but he said, no, he'd do the same thing again. And a lot of it was also with the injuries and everything. I was like, it's not, it's not a good, it's not good for your life if you get beat up that much. So, Jon B: Well, that, that, that, that, that talks to something though. Um, actually, and now I've watched a lot of your podcasts and, um, the people that. that you are interested in and the people that the folks listening, watching are interested in people that have had a variety of different careers. And most people watching this are someone like me. They have agenda, right? They've had a career in tech, are interested in tech. And we are very lucky to have had this career. I'm very, very lucky. So I always feel like I've stolen this career. So the reason being, Even to get this chance again will be an absolute touch, as they say in the UK. So [00:41:00] I'm, um, yeah, I've been very lucky, Charles, very lucky. So, um, I won't change a thing. CRA: I thought that's what you were going to say, but I thought I would get you with the Lincoln City one. I thought there was a chance I would get Jon B: Honestly, and again, look back on the record. There's a flicker. Um, because a week next Tuesday, I'm going to the training grounds because now I invest a little bit into the club to get more privileges and women's sports. I'm going to meet the players now. That would have been really, really, really cool, like being their age. But now it's like some old guys speaking to some young guys and trying to create a connection. Kind of weird. But yeah, that's also one. CRA: Okay, and so the final question is going to be a simple one. So like, I always, when I talk about you and describe you to people, I would say like, I don't know one person who would have anything negative to say about you. Um, you have this amazing sense of like optimism and happiness and joy all the time. So what's your secret to that? And how can I become more like you? Jon B: Well, firstly, that's, ooh, that's an incredibly kind thing [00:42:00] to say, uh, Charles. Um, and, and thank you. Uh, I, I, yeah, thank you. That's, that's an amazing thing to say. Uh, and really difficult to answer because, um, because it's very kind. Uh, thank you. Um, I suppose if we go back to the start of this podcast and the things that we've talked about. And actually, when we talked about, um, what I do on the John B. Studio channel, and effectively for all my life. I'm kind of really comfortable being me and I don't feel I need to be a character in any situation of anybody else. And that's learnt. I learnt it by the phone, I learnt it in a variety of different ways, but by making loads of mistakes all the time most days and being totally cool with it. So I suppose if I, if I'm qualified to give anyone any advice is. [00:43:00] It's think of the three things you really want to do in your life that make you happy and then ruthlessly search them out. And the search for it and the path towards it is going to be a lot of fun because you're doing something and you'll just find opportunities via sliding doors. And mine, if you remember, is technology, people and fun. Even just having three things kind of makes me happy, even saying it out loud. So, what are your three things? CRA: I'll have to think about mine and come back to you on that one. So, but this is a good chance for us to speak again. So, John. Thank you so much for taking time out of your evening to speak with us about this. I'd love the chance to just have another hour to sit around and chat with you. I look forward to getting over to the UK and when you come over to Amsterdam, we can definitely meet up. I'll take you for a ride in my Microlino. Um, maybe we'll do a Microlino podcast. There Jon B: Oh, hey, I love that. Thank you. And CRA: We'll get your drone as well. This will be perfect. I need you to come here and help me create content. Jon B: Let's do that. And thank you very much for, [00:44:00] uh, again, you made me stumble slightly with your very kind words at the end, and this is an affectation, for effect, but, um, you're one of life's good guys, Charles, and, uh, yeah, I still can't believe what you just said, so thank you very much. It's been a real honour for today. CRA: Pleasure. All right, mate, take care of yourself and I hope to see you soon. Jon B: Take care, my friend. All the best. CRA: Cheers. I think if I hit stop, it shouldn't get