TELCO'S FUTURE?
LOOK TO THE MIDDLE EAST, NOT THE WEST -
DANIAL MAUSOOF

CRA: Daniel, welcome back to the TechBurst Talks podcast. Danial: Thank you for having me, Charles. It's always a pleasure. CRA: We actually tried to do this in person in Dubai maybe two months ago, but unfortunately I completely screwed up the camera angle, Danial: Well, it was great having you in the living room and I'm happy to do this again and a lot's happened since then. CRA: It's the world we live in now. There's a lot of strange things going on every day. So why don't we start off with you just giving us a little bit of a background on yourself and your role at Nokia. Danial: with Nokia, things have been changing significantly. I'm currently leading products and services for mobile networks in Middle East and Africa. I've had different roles. I have led global enterprise, for Nokia out of the uk. Before this and prior to that, I was in APAC with you and we've obviously been through a few roles there, including market and sales development. So it's, it's, it's been interesting given the transformation in the telco sector across apac and now being in Middle East and [00:01:00] Africa, which has. As its dynamics, right? You can compare the two regions in some way. apac maybe looking at scale and adoption coming from Japan and Korea. And then you have mia, which is really high growth, top down really transformative kind of technology shifts happening in the region. So yeah, a good, good mix of things with Nokia here. CRA: you had a role in London for a while. So you had to deal with more of the European markets, which are, let's face it, a lot less dynamic and slower moving than you're gonna get in the Middle East. Danial: They are. The Europe role was interesting 'cause it was a global role, but I was based in the UK so I was dealing with a lot of enterprise and, working with transport regulatory heavy. Innovation pace is massively slower. And, there's a lot of focus on policymaking, which really doesn't really get to make itself out. So there's a lot of sluggish kind of transformation elements in place. So yeah, I've, I've had a good mix of those on the infra side. CRA: let's start off and look a little bit more at the Middle East because when we talked a [00:02:00] couple months ago, it was all about tariffs because let's face it, that was the topic. Now that seems to have cooled down a bit, what's your take on how the Middle East innovation market is progressing? Danial: I think there's a few elements in play and I'll come back to the geopolitics and tariffs, but first of all, I think Middle East and Africa and maybe Middle East itself, if we park Africa a little bit, I. its very kind of leadership vision in the UAE and Saudi comes together with gov't-backed capital through funds like PIF Saudi Arabia and UAE ADIA UAE and others. it's really about aligning ambition with their vision and given the capital strength that they have. It's really not that much about. Small movements. It's about systemic, bigger kind of chunky movements, which is what Middle East has been trying to deal with. So that's why you hear a lot about these infra projects. They go to a high, like NEOM and the Line and others, and then they kind of settle down into smaller things which is [00:03:00] more real. So you could see things happening in Saudi Arabia, which is the Aramco Digital building their own 450MHz network now, which is massive. Or, abu Dhabi national oil company ADNOC in the UAE building, a mmwave network, which is a one of the largest 5G networks so there's a lot of infra, which is coming out across the region, which is great. Now geopolitically, obviously we're sitting at the cusp of a lot of mess right now. I think there is the vacuum of if I may say so, common sense in some of the leadership around the world, and that makes it very tough for us to be in a region, which is. Quite susceptible to this, right? So when we were talking in Dubai, the biggest thing was tariffs. And maybe tariffs are not that impactful. we are less exposed in Middle East but what's happened since then is that the geopolitics has really taken a turn. So I'm in Sydney today, and when I was flying out of UAE into Doha, there was obviously a full-blown scare of [00:04:00] war where we had, israel and around already added, and then there was a little bit of a scare in Doha as well. So this becomes a geopolitical mess for us to be, dealing with while you're still trying to infuse and inject capital into infra projects across and ensuring that the region shows the stability that it needs to show for people to come down. UAE has seen a tremendous growth in population and people coming in, and that comes from the fact of showing the stability, showing the economic vision that the country has to make sure that you've got the right elements in place to have that grow in. And that's always at risk, but somehow it stays unified today. I think there is still a lot of hope in this part of the world to ensure that these infra projects are going to deliver and bringing the policy and the vision together. it's just a really hot spot to see where technology is gonna be working in the next few years. CRA: every business leader, no matter where you are, is dealing with a lot of uncertainty and instability, whether it's tariff [00:05:00] related, whether if it's conflict related, but because of those infrastructure investments that you're getting in the Middle East, they're attracting a lot of companies, a lot of money, and a lot of talent out there. Danial: Absolutely. I think middle East has become a real attractive spot for people to come in, but , it's not that easy though. There is a lot of people trying to come here and Middle East itself, it's a little bit of a specialist market. Few things that people get wrong is you can't really expect some sort of, uniformity, right? That you're going to come in and it's very similar in the Gulf vs Saudi, for example. It's a very different market and you've gotta make sure that that's something that you are building on now. If you look at the market itself, it's little bit modeled after what Singapore did. UAE is building on what. Singapore had done a few years ago, but they had done that in a more regulatory-aligned way because the leadership vision really plays on this. And then you have the capital that you're trying to invest and it may [00:06:00] comes together very nicely. And then maybe the innovation ecosystem in Singapore was great, but here they're able to leverage that a little bit better because of the capital funding that comes in with it, right? So all of that together makes it a very attractive market, but. A specialized one. CRA: You're seeing a lot of Western companies and mmcs. Putting their focus there because they see it as a growth market and there is a lot of technology spend, but you're also seeing this influx of talent, people leaving other hubs like Singapore and moving to Middle East. How is this influx of people and companies really driving the dynamics in the Middle East? Danial: I think a very important question because talent plays such an important role in the Middle East right now, because they're trying to build human capital, right? And that's something that requires people coming in from everywhere. But what is unique here and what sometimes foreign companies might get wrong is that there is no, you know. Formity across the region. So you've gotta really look at each of the markets differently. Made be Dubai, Qatar, or Saudi. And [00:07:00] some of this which is also very critical, is that it is a very trust-based culture. That means you've gotta build trust and relationships for you to be successful, and that takes time. So that's something that is very, very critical when it comes to talent. People trying to come here need to understand the variable requirements of the region. And it's not about just selling part of the technology stack. It's really how do you build that and embed yourself in the vision that the region has. And that's something that's different than what Singapore had back in the day. Right. So we talked about this a couple of years ago UAE is seeing somewhat of a finer result of what. Singapore had done in the past and it's modeled after what had been done there. May be education, may be bringing regulatory environment together to align with that or bringing talent from all over the world. I think that all comes together very nicely with a vision, which is much. More superior. And it also ensures that there is global partnerships. It's not just about [00:08:00] region being region, it's not about Asia being Asia. It's really from the UAE or Saudi or the Middle East to the world. And that's where the vision of having manufacturing locally or r&d locally or the Saudi government mandating for you to do. RD locally in Saudi Arabia makes a whole lot of difference because it's from Saudi to the rest of the world. I'll give you an example. I was talking to a company last Sunday while I was ready to leave Dubai. I was talking to a major PIF company that is trying to build manufacturing facilities and the gentleman that the end of the day told me, Danial please go sell Saudi because for us. It's about Saudi to the world. My answer was I'm already on the Saudi Kool-Aid. Right. I've been drinking it for a couple of years, so you don't need to tell me. CRA: it's interesting what you're mentioning there about , the way that they're driving and they're taking it out to the rest of the world. Because while there is a lot of spend, a lot of projects, they have a limited market size there as far as the population. So they really need to be able to build [00:09:00] these things locally, but then take 'em to other markets. Danial: absolutely if you just take telco, which I know a little bit better, right? If you look at telco take e for example, right? Former. And it's acquired a Vodafone stake. It's looking for European expansion. It is expanding in Europe. It's got African affiliates. Muroc is one of their affiliates in Africa. They're really betting on scale, on a global brand uplift as well. They're not just a UAE brand anymore. They're a global brand. If you were at Mobile World Congress, which you were, because I was with you you would've seen the e Booth It was a global scale. It was no different than what Nokia was doing or what Ericsson was doing, or Huawei was doing. They're a technology company and STC Saudi Telecom is no different. They've got Telefonica, they've got Tower Asset Acquisition, Tawal which is a tower arm is everywhere. They're trying to diversify their income. They've just gone global. You've got cars, you're got lucid already , in Saudi Arabia. You've got people in [00:10:00] renewable energies playing a role there. Hyundai has got one of the largest manufacturing facilities in Saudi Arabia. It's not inward looking. , It's really moving forward and saying, we're gonna be from here to the globe. And those are real examples. So I think they're very much growth driven. They have got obviously government and state backing and they're not constrained by legacy regulatory issues like in Europe. And that's something which is very different in this part of the world. CRA: I wanna come back to Ian it's probably the best telco when it comes to their marketing strategy. And you mentioned their stand at Mobile World Congress. They definitely had the best use of digital signage. They had the robot coffee machine there, ll, which I love because it actually makes good espresso. But they're really building this global brand now and you see advertisements from all over the place. And it's funny because you wouldn't have expected it initially to come out of the Middle East. You would assume they'd come out and be very cautious, or it might be a little bit of a boring marketing strategy. They've been very aggressive and very innovative and they're getting a lot [00:11:00] of buzz. And like you mentioned, they have a stake on what is it, like 17% of Vodafone that they own. Danial: if I've got it on top of my head right now. Yeah. CRA: . The other point I wanna come back to is that strategy that they've taken in the Middle East they modeled it partially off of Singapore. I think the way I look at it is they've actually done a lot of it based on how China does its five-year plan. When I see the announcements coming out of Saudi, UAE, Qatar. It's all about lining up supply, demand, regulatory and investment, and putting everybody in a direction. So instead of having a lot of competing forces, they make big plans around how we're gonna revamp education around ai, and then we follow through AI with companies and government and everyone else. So literally everything from supply demand down to academia are all going in one direction, and it creates a lot of momentum and it upskills people quickly. Danial: Yeah, I think if you take each region and you talk about it, if they have, it's their own cadence, right? They've got their own rhythm and , they're looking at what speed you can drive things [00:12:00] with, but sometimes it's a little fragmented. It comes from cultures, it comes from many things. Middle East is very fragmented when it comes to their policy towards . Geopolitics, right? Their policymaking and, , their differences and how they support the US or the China kind of sectors or whatever. It's very, very different. I think what it really aligns with is that vision. You know, everything that you talk about in apac, there is like a really, really hard drive to align vision. May you pick up. UAE or Qatar or Saudi, that's where you see the energy shift. When you land in Dubai or you land in Riyadh, you will feel that, visionary leadership vision really driving the transformation that is happening. Comparatively in Europe, I think for years we've been saying the same thing that, you know, aligning stakeholders, it takes a long time in the UAE. It's driven right from the top. You get to the right minister, you'll get that drive. [00:13:00] I had our friend who we both know Bernard who runs SparkLabs He was telling me, the pace of innovation in Saudi Arabia. If you talk to the right government ministry. You end up taking it all the way. So there is a lot of focus from the state and the government policy makers to make sure something is successful. . And I see the same in Telco. When they really put their their mandate out, it gets done right. And that's what's probably the difference between these regions. It's really as simple as that. Charles? Yeah. CRA: I think it's helped 'em to attract capital as well, because if you look at , the venture capital ecosystem in Southeast Asia. It's taken a massive hit over the last few years, and it was a combination of post COVID, it was a combination of a lack of exits. But then you've had a few of these scandals with the unicorns coming out of Indonesia, like, e fishery. You're just seeing the startup environment going really slow there, and a lot of those funds are shifting their money elsewhere where there is more innovation, more guaranteed [00:14:00] of a regulatory environment and the less risk, money's coming in, tech's coming in, people are coming in, the talent is there. So now it's just a matter of what can go wrong. And this is what I want to go into next. What are the critical success factors? How can they maintain this momentum Danial: we have already kind of in Middle Eastern Africa established a leading position, right? Starting from Telco you look at the top networks in the world in terms of performance, you will see UAE and Saudi . You look at the largest 5G deployments and people talk about 5G use cases and so on. But you see the largest ones happening. Middle East has them Aramco Digital Building a 450 MHz network, which is all over Saudi. We have it. We have ADNOC we have Red Sea projects. We have delivered that 5G essence that we need. You know, if you look at UAE today, 70% of more of the 5G traffic is driving fixed wireless access in the UAE. That's the killer use case that everyone talks about and it's been established here. Now we need to look at the next level of monetisation and so on. So that's done the next frame, which is becoming very, very important. It's [00:15:00] really trying to fit commercially the ai elements in. In the telco area, a lot will be driven by AI ran. And what does that mean? That means, you know, we've had the noise of OpenRAN but there is an opportunity for Telco to really get into the next frame. And if you look at that, that's gonna be driven by some of the AI specific elements that come into play. And that's gonna be very important. I would say. Mission critical networks are gonna be very important. There's already some deployment happening in Saudi and the rest of the world. the whole AI ran elements coming together where we will be able to move some, some workloads on the edge, and edge becomes a really, really big playing. Field for everyone, including the telcos. Look, telcos own a lot of the edge, right? And then there is the enterprise edge. All of that automation orchestration still needs to happen. It's not happening today. Then there's something very interesting, network APIs, there's been a lot of hype around that and I think there could be a critical success factor in what are the telco [00:16:00] capabilities that are be going to be able to deliver these APIs. And that's something that's gonna play a role into how you imagine networks to play. So you're looking at the edge, the telco edge, the enterprise edge. You bring the network APIs together. All of that together. And if you try to take that technology shift to say that some of this AI ran will start playing a role, that means you will start moving ran workloads over to the edge. That's a complete different ecosystem that we're talking about. We've been trying to solve these telco problems for, I don't know, two decades now. I have, I've been in the industry for over two decades now, and I think this is really the moment and Middle East is going to be at the centre of that moment where it's not about technology. It's really, is it, it's not about if it works or not, it's about 1 Do we really as an industry have what it takes. It has the courage to really go in and say, we are gonna disrupt it and we are gonna do something different, which could mean that a lot of players will get out of play vendors, ecosystem [00:17:00] players, and so on. And then you see what value you can drive through some of these monetisation elements and the projects in Saudi Arabia in the private 5G space, and driven by the visionary leadership in the region. As well as ensuring AI plays a positive role is gonna be a big factor in this part of the world. Saudi Arabia has just created HUMAIN which is gonna be, extremely big and powerful in the next couple of years. They've been given a mandate to really consolidate all AI projects in Saudi Arabia and bring them together under the leadership of Tareq Amin So a lot is gonna happen. You need to keep your eyes here and we should be talking more about this. CRA: network APIs was getting a lot of press and now it's in a situation where people like it, but I think a lot of people don't understand it. So Give me your simple definition. What do network APIs mean and what do they mean to the telco and to the consumers? Danial: I think it's like anything telco has experienced. [00:18:00] Right. Again, you and I have been in the industry a long time, so we've seen a lot of this come in and unfortunately, operators haven't really cracked the code. And when I say cracking the code, it's again, not . What is the technology and what does it do? The technology is simple. It's just trying to give access to APIs, which gives you the quality of service the specifics of the consumer to allow them to use it. To have different services on, to monetise that data in a particular way. It's very simple, but how do you commercially break the model? How do you ensure that you are able to bring together the interest from the verticals or enterprises to be able to use this data? And that's where I think the crust of it. Nokia has been doing something on network APIs for the last two, three years, so has our competition, and I think it really is how do the operators understand and quickly come up with the monetisation mechanics to [00:19:00] ensure that they're able to make some money off this because They own bunch of the data. They have so much access to data of quality, of service, of identity, of what it really means. And imagine all that going to your business verticals and they can be able to monetise this and the telcos understand how they really wanna sell this. I think that's gonna be key. I think it's an interesting space to watch. I don't think it has been figured out yet in terms of what that monetisation elements are gonna play in. I think it's one of the enablers for the industry right now. I can definitely say the next two years are gonna be interesting in how this gets positioned. CRA: I was talking to somebody the other day about this and we both agree we like the concept of network APIs 'cause there's a lot of things you can start building out better apps and solutions with it. The question we came down to was, can the telcos actually make money out of it? Because , there's definitely use there, but it doesn't mean that telcos are the ones who are gonna be able to develop and create those applications and solutions that leverage it. So our big question [00:20:00] was, is it really gonna help the telcos? Or is this the latest thing where they're thinking they're gonna finally start to monetize it and they can't? Danial: there are only a few telcos in the world who started doing the platform play, right? We talked about e right? I think e has that capacity and understanding of how a platform play works. Verizon in the US understands what platform is about. How do you monetise different elements? The thing is. That's where the success lies. It's not about, the way telcos thinks right now. They've gotta think about how they're going to get their enterprises locked in to understand what is the value of the data that comes in. How are you going to actually take those network APIs and create, opportunities and applications that allow you to give services. Maybe security related services, location. You could do finance, you could do gaming, you could do mission, critical stuff, all of those things. I think it's really about telco's investing and understanding what those monetisation models are gonna [00:21:00] be, what those commercial models are gonna be, and ensuring that they get out of that, thinking that they have. Really not been able to get out in the past when such opportunities have come in. So I think we really need the telcos to play a different tune now, and hopefully with a lot of these alliances that are coming together and a lot of these operators getting together, they crack the code. CRA: let's hope so, because the industry could use some positive monetisation for anything around 5G my biggest worry around network APIs is a lot of people who are technical are talking about it. It hasn't translated into a simple discussion that the C-Suite are talking about or the non-technical people where they understand the value in it. If you wanna start driving spend to try and hire people to build out your network, API business as a telco, you need to be able to make it clear, easily understandable to those people. But this is how we're gonna monetise it. Not to say we can give them access to the data, that's part of the sentence. It has to be, we give them access to all this data so they can do X, Y, and Z. [00:22:00] And that's what I'm hoping they'll really work on. It is a hot topic this year. But a lot of people have more questions than answers. Danial: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think there's a lot of questions to be answered, and I think bringing the ecosystem together is gonna help some of that come together in the next couple of years. But it's definitely one of the hot topics to watch. CRA: I always loved the concept of private 5G and I thought that was gonna be the great enterprise use case. It hasn't taken off as quickly as we would've hoped, but can you explain why would somebody like ADNOC Abu Dhabi National Oil Co want a private 5G network and what do they think they can actually do with it? That they couldn't get off of a public network? Danial: So ADNOC is working with etisalat right? So they, it, it's, they're using etisalat spectrum and first of all, they're deploying a mmwave network. Very few places in the world where mmwave has been deployed. It's been deployed in the US and it's being deployed in the UAE. One, it's not just a private 5G network, it's a mmwave network, which is, which is very unique in its own way. The second thing is what ADNOC [00:23:00] wants to do is all their rigs and drilling stations wanted to have use cases, which were, high definition. Upload video, and they wanted a dedicated network because that's something that they do on a regular basis. They have a number of tools and analysis. In fact, one of our common friends is, is Kallipr is actually giving some equipment to ADNOC which is working with Nokia on that. And what ADC has done is they've charted out a number of, future use cases that they want. So they built a network which is future ready of what kind of tools and automation that they want to use in the field and how they will be able to use this private 5G network for that. Some of the things that they're making. They're asking for, it's very much focused on uplink. So they're looking for new frame structures, for example, where we are building that for them, that they'll be able to upload high quality imagery , in a particular timeframe and in a particular quality. And that's something that networks today aren't doing. So this [00:24:00] is a very specific feature request that ad Knock has that we're building as well. So it's, it's quite significant and quite unique in what they're doing. CRA: It's unique because it's also not cheap. That's why people haven't done it. But it does give you that ultra low latency and high bandwidth, which means if you wanna start looking at the solutions that will be. Deploying in five to seven to 10 years. Now, whether it's gonna be around autonomous vehicles or equipment robotics it gives you a lot of flexibility going forward. So it's gonna be interesting to see what use cases come up because let's face it, there's not a lot of places we can go and say they've deployed it. There's tons of use cases. So that's one. I think I'll keep tracking quite a bit just to see how it progresses over time. Danial: And this is what comes back to our narrative, or at least what I was trying to say in the beginning. You're right, it's expensive, but when you get that. Vision with the capital, together with an enabling tech, this is what happens. So you've got somebody who's not scared of what's coming in the future. They're building future ready networks. They don't have regulatory constraints. So they're going ahead and doing what is needed and [00:25:00] they're building what they think would be right for the future of that particular business. So that's a great example. And by the way Aramco Digital is going to be next, a four 50 network, which is gonna be built across 2000 sites across Saudi Arabia. . CRA: luckily they have the cash to do it because these things are not cheap and it, it is funny for me to look at the Middle East right now because if you go back 10 years ago. ago. A lot of it was, you thought the Middle East was building a bunch of buildings, but they're really trying to just catch up with the rest of the world. And it seems like in a blink of an eye, , they've leapfrogged everything, whether it's about innovation spend, the growth of AI across the region. The R&D centres they've built out, I remember like A-R-T-C-A few years ago had two dozen engineers. Now they've got like thousands and thousands of them building out probably the world's most advanced LLM network, the Falcon, LLM. Now with telecoms as well. While the rest of the world has already deployed 5G, what you're now seeing is the most interesting networks and most advanced networks being developed in the Middle East. Danial: And by the way, we could do a, whole episode on [00:26:00] 6G but the UAE and the Saudi customers are not stepping back. They want to lead 6G They want to be the first. So when 5G was happening, you heard Japan and Korea and the US talking about first 5G deployments. UAE or Saudi are going to make sure that they're making the first commercial 6G deployments. They're very much creating alliances. They're very much focused from the government to ensure that they've got the right elements in place. Spectrum from bodies are meeting WRC was in UAE last time and they were meeting and making sure the right spectrums are in place so it'll happen in this part of the world. CRA: you brought up 6G so I'm gonna have to do this. We haven't figured out how to monetise 5G yet. Now everyone's gonna start pushing 6G and they're gonna look to actually deploy these 6G networks. Why would you deploy a 6G network? What use cases does it actually support? Danial: I think there's a lot of debate what 6G networks are going to be like. So first of all, before we get to the use cases, I [00:27:00] think it is more about. Is 6G just going to be kind of an SA standalone approach. That means there is nothing that is converging from what you have today in your 5G network to 6G So this could be a completely different play altogether. It's a bit too early to say that what that play is going to be. There is a lot of debate in the industry today, so if it's just gonna be an SA play you're probably talking very much about how do you make sure Edge is getting successful, some of the robotics industry. So it could. Potentially be, I could be wrong. Not that mass scale of a deployment strategy. Anyways for 6G that's number one. The second thing is, I think what's important about 6G There has to be some standardisation learnings coming from 5G, right? There has to be, because as an industry there was just so much mess on the standardisation perspective it just did not work. So I think those elements, playing in and sitting with ITU and , sitting with some of the people in the last year in different conferences, I do get the sense that people are really focused on those elements right now. [00:28:00] What is it that we take forward today? Making sure that we've got the right places. And then finally, what kind of spectrum bands become really, really key. So it could be a very different play from my perspective, and I hope it is. I think I told you a story once that there was a very interesting gentleman who was presenting right before me and the title of my presentation said 5G and Beyond. And he presented half an hour and I wouldn't mention his name before me and he said. Innovation beyond the gs. So there was a conflict in what we were really going to say. So I was still talking about 5G and beyond and he was coming in and talking about obviously open ran networks. So all of the AI ran coming into play is gonna have a massive impact. Charles on 6G it's not gonna be about use cases, really. It is going to be what do you do for networks to completely operate differently than what they do today? Are the workloads going to completely change? is that going to be something completely different in how [00:29:00] networks are deployed? And I think if you look at the industry they're looking at that you can talk to tower codes and you understand that even tower codes are thinking, where am I gonna get my next play? Obviously data centers is the big piece, but what about edge? Can I repurpose? Can I start building some of these assets and see if we can make some play? Because that. Power radio box structure has to go away. CRA: So what do you think about the impact of satellite on the telecoms industry? Are we gonna finally start seeing people leveraging it, whether it's for iot type solutions, global connectivity, or is it still gonna be more like the starlink just giving people connectivity in remote areas? Danial: No, I think it's gonna have a major play, but I think there is some elements that are important to clarify a few of the CTOs in Africa when we're trying to go and tell them that you need to do a rural build. Where we are built like this really lean solution. We do so do our competitors to go deploy. Currently there are a few things that you need to play on [00:30:00] satellites, non-terrestrial is gonna play. A big real challenge comes from. When you are deploying traditional networks, those traditional networks have a certain spectral efficiency that makes a huge impact, right? And that's not there in satellite right now. That's number one. The second thing is when you're deploying rural networks in Africa and other places you are able to get more in terms of your latency today, because the usage of the consumer doesn't really. Work with what you have with satellites today. The third element is the devices, the direct to device, kind of satellite systems. The devices in Africa. It's gonna take a lot of time for devices to get to the point where you can do direct to device links, right? And that's something that's not there. So. It's not an immediate threat to telco. I think it is the good compliment to areas where you could do backhaul with satellite. You could do microwave or you could do UE based relay. So you can use rural deployments and you can backhaul with satellite [00:31:00] and it'll be perfect. So it becomes a good complementing solution. I was flying on Qatar. When the plane took off from Doha, the captain did announce that the plane was equipped with starlink and you would be having uninterrupted internet. I took a conference call from the plane with four video cameras on from the other side. It did not glitch for a second. That was starlink with a full one hour conference call and it was absolutely brilliant. So yes, it is going to play a major role. And I think it's up to the industry to come and work together ultimately our goal should be to enhance connectivity when it comes to everywhere. And it's a good complimenting solution rather than trying to go erode each other or cannibalize each other today in the ecosystem. CRA: so final couple of questions here. When you look across technology and innovation anywhere in the world, what excites you most right now? Danial: if I look at it from a telco landscape, I think [00:32:00] this whole play of AI and trying to bring everything together to the edge is going to be a big play. This is not open ran. How do you really bring the edge alive, right? And that's gonna be something that's gonna be a major play. I'm excited about it and I hope the vendors like Nokia, like Ericsson and others, we're all going to focus on this. As we move forward. Some of the excitement is coming through. So some of the AI ran alliances are coming together and how do we build that together as an industry, as an ecosystem is gonna be very important. So that's quite exciting. I think the other thing that for me is been very critical is probably how the whole. Enterprise space will start playing and I think there is going to be a change there. And that change is gonna come from industries really learning from some of the early deployments and how Spectrum plays a role on this. So there's a shift now. So the operators are saying, we are gonna go. So [00:33:00] you've got an example like ADNOC where you're gonna go and you're gonna build that and you're gonna see that some of this is going to shift towards getting direct access spectrum and that will build some. Private networks network, which are going to prove themselves of monetization and so on. So that's gonna be an important thing. And the third would be for people like e UAE for people like Verizon, for people like STC Saudi to really become a global platform play. I think we're gonna see that in the next five years. I think that's gonna be something that's gonna be quite interesting to see. Not everyone will succeed, but some of these operators are going to succeed in becoming platform players where they're able to really monetise different elements of the networks together and orchestrate the users whether it be enterprises or consumers, and try to monetise that whole play in one, one flow together. So those are some of the telco grade kind of excitement areas that I see. CRA: I think on the telco innovation bit that you're talking about there , I also agree, I think it's gonna be very exciting to see if they can become global [00:34:00] platforms. Because if you go back 5 10 years ago, the Middle East Telcos were trying to basically import, expertise and the technology, and now they're probably gonna be leading when it comes to these new solutions coming out. And they'll be the ones pushing this out to the rest of the world. So we'll see if they can make a success out of this and let's see if they can finally crack the 5G monetization puzzle because that's been a big one for the industry, that they over hype things a wee bit and have struggled to recoup their investments. Danial: one last thing I would add to that question is probably the regional bet, right? I do think that there's a lot of debate on ai. Ethics, you'd done a post recently about, how chat GPT starts acting up sometimes there's obviously those debate about 5G monetization, six G networks. How are you gonna build, more sustainable networks? And all this is becoming real. I think where you will see, is that Middle East is going to be the proving ground for a all of these. And that's something that, infra coming together with ai with the future of some of this AI based telco, all this is going to come [00:35:00] together and it's great to see that we're gonna be witnessing it here in the Middle East. CRA: We're actually very lucky to be talking about these incredible advancements. , When you started out in the industry over two decades ago, it's probably about the time I left banking and went into technology. I remember we were talking about Wap. I found an old presentation I did in 2000 talking about how with 3G, we were gonna get network speeds up to three megabytes per second. Danial: that's 20 years ago. So yeah, a lot has happened since then. And you're absolutely right. We're very lucky to see the transformation and I think we're very lucky to see the technology. And I hope, common sense prevails. 'cause there's a lot more hope in this part of the world. But currently the Middle East is toppling with war. Hopefully this goes away and we continue to see the transformation because at the end of the day, it is not about just the Middle East, it's about the Middle East to the world, like we said. And I think that's where people will realize that whatever you prove in this part of the world gets replicated and, you get greater success out of it. So yeah, looking forward to it and I [00:36:00] hope to see you soon in the bye. Yeah. CRA: Well, Daniel, thank you for joining us once again on the Tech Risk Talks podcast to discuss your views on the telecoms market and give us a deep dive into what's going on in the Middle East. Danial: Charles. It's always been a pleasure and I'm glad we, it got to do it twice and I think we got more flavor out of it this time around. CRA: I agree. Listen, enjoy the rest of your time in Sydney and I'll hopefully see you in Dubai pretty soon. Danial: Sounds good. Look forward to that.